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29 July 2010 @ 07:20 pm
Exclusive claims in the Scriptures  
Yesterday I ended up leaving another community because I had been slandered there and the moderators not only refused to address the slander but ended up agreeing with it and saying that had I not left, I would have been banned.

The reason was that I was asked if I agreed with the statement that "Jews are devil-worshippers."  In context, the other party was speaking not of ethnic Jews but of those who hold to the religion of modern Judaism and thereby deny the divinity of Christ.  Based on Ephesians 2 and many statements in the Gospel of John, 1 John, and the Revelation of Saint John that those who hold to "Judaism" (the religion that denies that the entire Old Testament points to and is fulfilled in Jesus), I was readily able to agree with the statement, even though it can sound a bit inflammatory.

My basic point was a simple one:  You can claim to worship the true God and not do so.  Our Lord even says, "Not everyone who says, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven."  You can even call your false god by a biblical name (the God of Abraham, Yahweh, Jesus, etc.) and not be worshipping the true God.  This is the case with Jews, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and others who deny the creeds.

When it comes down to brass tacks, anyone we would classify as an unbeliever we could also call a worshipper of Satan because they are under the dominion of the "ruler of the power of the air" (Ephesians 2).  And our Lord says that if you are not for Him, you are against Him.

Now, while I am not a person who will go up to my dear Jewish friends and say, "Did you know that you are a devil worshipper?" it seems to me that when I'm asked if I agree with the statement that the only honest answer is, "Yes."  Instead, when I am conversing about my faith with my Jewish friends, I say nothing that directly condemns their beliefs unless they directly ask about it (which they sometimes do).  I make a positive Christian witness.  If they ask me, "Do you think I'm going to hell?" then the answer is, "I believe that any that do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah go to hell."  They are neither surprised nor offended by the answer.

It seems very interesting to me that in our 21st century culture anyone that makes a negative statement about Judaism is labeled an "Anti-semite."  Until recently, I would have only ever thought to define an Anti-Semite as one who has a racial prejudice against ethnic Jews.

It would seem that my definition was way too narrow for the way that some want to use it.

What are your thoughts?
 
 
 
Jen: Crosssparroweyes on July 29th, 2010 11:40 pm (UTC)
Well, you KNOW that I agree with you.
Ethnicity = race.
Religion does not = race.

Is it discriminatory? Sure.

Jesus was a Jew for pete's sake... Christians can't be anti-semitic.
dedenic on July 30th, 2010 01:59 am (UTC)
Christians cannot rationally be anti-semitic, but there are plenty of anti-semitic Christians.
Rev. Charles Lehmannchaz_lehmann on July 30th, 2010 02:01 am (UTC)
That's a very good point.
(no subject) - sparroweyes on July 30th, 2010 03:49 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - edenic on July 30th, 2010 04:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sparroweyes on July 30th, 2010 11:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 02:05 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sparroweyes on July 30th, 2010 02:14 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - chaz_lehmann on July 30th, 2010 02:15 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sparroweyes on July 30th, 2010 02:18 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - chaz_lehmann on July 30th, 2010 02:21 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sparroweyes on July 30th, 2010 02:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 02:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sparroweyes on July 30th, 2010 02:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 02:47 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sparroweyes on July 30th, 2010 03:03 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 03:11 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - chaz_lehmann on July 30th, 2010 03:15 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 03:19 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sparroweyes on July 30th, 2010 03:21 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - chaz_lehmann on July 30th, 2010 03:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - chaz_lehmann on July 30th, 2010 03:25 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 03:40 pm (UTC) (Expand)
pastorlennypastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 04:41 am (UTC)
Christians can't be anti-semitic.

*headdesk*
(no subject) - sparroweyes on July 30th, 2010 11:22 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 01:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sparroweyes on July 30th, 2010 02:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 02:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sparroweyes on July 30th, 2010 02:19 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 02:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
thy_mesavedthrugrace on July 30th, 2010 12:23 am (UTC)
Well it is also said that "he who is not against us is for us" (Mark 9:40).

And remember that the Jews are still God's chosen people. The salvation of Jews was, is, and will be a contentious question, one which we have no right to answer - the only thing a conscientious Christian can do, is to bring the Gospel to them where he can.
Rev. Charles Lehmannchaz_lehmann on July 30th, 2010 01:00 am (UTC)
I think the Scriptures make it clear that the only ones who still can call themselves sons of Abraham are those who are sons of Abraham by faith. The Israel of God is the Christian Church.
dedenic on July 30th, 2010 02:00 am (UTC)
Can you offer some references to support these statements?
(no subject) - chaz_lehmann on July 30th, 2010 02:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - edenic on July 30th, 2010 02:46 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 04:43 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 05:30 am (UTC) (Expand)
David Johnsonfanha on July 30th, 2010 02:08 am (UTC)
On what Scriptural basis do you take a failure to honor God in fullness to be a worship of the devil? For example, Paul in Acts 17 points to the Greeks - thoroughly pagan and polytheistic, worshiping an idol - and pointed out that they were in spirit worshiping not the devil but God almighty - even though they denied Judaism/Christianity - and simply needed to repent of their ignorance and worship properly. What differs between the Greeks worshiping a god whose nature they were ignorant of and Jews worshiping the God whose Son they are ignorant of?

I don't think it was a "negative statement" that resulted in your comment being pointed out as being anti-Semitic, but rather it's a fallacious theological position that slanders Jews and misdirects them - by saying they are worshiping the Enemy rather than correctly pointing out they are worshiping God Almighty in an ignorant and unsatisfying way.
Rev. Charles Lehmannchaz_lehmann on July 30th, 2010 02:13 am (UTC)
The basis for my statements is Jesus' own words. He says that you cannot honor the Father unless you honor the Son who sent Him. It's really quite simple. If a Jew was actually worshiping the God of the Old Testament, said Jew would worship Jesus, who is the God of the Old Testament. Instead, the unbelieving Jews of Jesus' day said that He had a demon. The Talmud of the modern Jews says the same thing. You cannot worship the Trinity if you deny the second person.

Thus, though the modern Jews claim to worship the God of Abraham, they are worshiping a false God by that name.

As for Acts 17, Paul is using a rhetorical device. He says that all the gods the Greeks name are false gods and that the true God is unknown to them.
David Johnsonfanha on July 30th, 2010 02:23 am (UTC)
He says that you cannot honor the Father unless you honor the Son who sent Him.

Right, I agree and Paul agrees, that their worship was not pleasing to God and they were called out of ignorance. But there's no talk of worshiping the devil; quite the contrary, Paul says they are worshiping God.

If I cannot worship God while being ignorant of His full nature, then I'm a devil-worshiper too.
(no subject) - chaz_lehmann on July 30th, 2010 02:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - fanha on July 30th, 2010 02:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - chaz_lehmann on July 30th, 2010 02:39 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - edenic on July 30th, 2010 03:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 05:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - fanha on July 30th, 2010 06:36 am (UTC) (Expand)
pastorlennypastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 05:06 am (UTC)
He says that you cannot honor the Father unless you honor the Son who sent Him.

Yes, so those following rabbinical Judaism do not properly honor the Father. That doesn't mean that their disordered worship is directed at someone other than Yahweh.
(no subject) - chaz_lehmann on July 30th, 2010 01:22 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 02:03 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - chaz_lehmann on July 30th, 2010 02:07 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 02:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - chaz_lehmann on July 30th, 2010 02:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 02:34 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - chaz_lehmann on July 30th, 2010 02:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 02:49 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - chaz_lehmann on July 30th, 2010 02:51 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 02:59 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - chaz_lehmann on July 30th, 2010 03:05 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 03:13 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - chaz_lehmann on July 30th, 2010 03:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 03:46 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - chaz_lehmann on August 14th, 2010 06:46 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sparroweyes on July 30th, 2010 02:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - pastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 02:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sparroweyes on July 30th, 2010 02:40 pm (UTC) (Expand)
pastorlennypastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 05:32 am (UTC)
Yeah, it's a bit of a leap to assert that Jews worship a different God.
dedenic on July 30th, 2010 03:26 am (UTC)
I wonder if one can worship something inadvertently? Can you worship something without loving it? Can you love something without knowing it? I'm not totally certain of the answer, but if it's "no," then I don't think you can rightly call the Jews "devil-worshippers." Unwitting servants, perhaps, but not worshippers.

In any case, I wonder what good it does to press the point, to insist and argue that they are, in fact, devil-worshippers. The result is the same, whatever you're called: the denial of Christ means eternal separation from God.
pastorlennypastorlenny on July 30th, 2010 05:34 am (UTC)
Plus Romans 11 offers a bit of a caution to Gentile believers.
(no subject) - edenic on July 30th, 2010 05:47 am (UTC) (Expand)
Sistah-friendmrsduryee on July 30th, 2010 03:26 pm (UTC)
I waded through all the comments (wow I am out of my element in terms of education and intellect here!) and this is the one that struck me.

The Bible seems to imply that those who do not worship the true God are worshiping Satan, but it doesn't come right out and say it explicitly. I think the reason for that is found in your second point - what would the good of that be? What we should share is that because Jews do not trust Jesus for salvation, they are separated from God, which will ultimately lead to eternal existence in the presence of Satan (worshiping or not).